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File:Stacy Brooks.webm

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Syunsyunminmin (talk) 15:40, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

@Syunsyunminmin: The copyright holder has done the VRT process. Grorp (talk) 11:03, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello. I pasted {{subst:PP}} instead. Syunsyunminmin (talk) 11:26, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Covered wagons

Hi are you dismantling covered wagons? what is wrong with this one here? In my opinion covered wagon is a wagon type and taxi is a function type. So for adding a new function there is no strict need to remove the carriage type I think. As for horse drawn taxis in the NL. They city stables existed until ca. 1950. I would not call a contemporary 'tourist touring car' a 'taxi' because the drivers will usually decide the route and an omnibus is not a taxi. What about car-a-bancs? Why can a wagon with a cover drawn by horses in the Netherlanda NOT be a "hose-drawn covered wagons in the Netherlands"? This is important because i have to know where to put these, have the rules changed? Are these NOT covered wagons in the background either? (actually i don't see a convincing Leiterwagen here). Are you just thinking of chuck wagons or what is this all about? here just the info that the wagon has a shelter is removed and not replaced by anything better, why is 'covered' not suited as a placeholder here until somebody has the knowledge to call it a car-a-bancs? Thanks. Best regards. Peli (talk) 22:56, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Stop changing your post while I'm trying to answer your question. Add a new comment to the thread instead. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 23:42, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Meaning of "taxi": A vehicle available for hire to carry passengers, where the driver provides transport for payment, regardless of whether the route is fixed, chosen by the passenger, or chosen by the driver. If you prefer the term "hackney carriage", that would also be accurate, though it's less widely recognized outside the UK. "Taxi" is quite universal, even in non-English speaking countries.
Looking at photographs in commons, one cannot tell if the vehicle is used as local transport or tourist transport, but you can decipher from the photos that they are passenger vehicles for hire.
Modern horse-drawn taxis rarely match any of the traditional carriage types, and few are actually "wagons". Hence why I chose the "use" Category:Horse-drawn taxis. Wagons are rarely passenger vehicles.
Many of the incorrectly labeled photographs depicted flat-top canopy vehicles. Some have bows and partial or full canvas-type covers, but that doesn't make them "covered wagons". After removing dozens of incorrectly categorized images, I was not willing to spend even more time finding correct categories to add images to.
The first image you provide as an example (Landall Vennenbos), has wagonette seating. It might be a wagon, but that's not obvious from the photograph. It is safer to categorize such as taxis.
The second sample, the military supply wagons, should go under the Category:Horse-drawn military vehicles, not mixed with civilian migratory covered wagons. I didn't label that one "lieterwagen", I only removed "covered wagon".
The third sample, Harvest Parade, is a w:wagonette with a canopy top (not a wagon, and not covered). It's not even being pulled by horses but is likely hitched to an automotive vehicle off frame.

I edit carriage and horse-drawn vehicle articles in English Wikipedia. I use WikiCommons to find images to illustrate those articles. Sometimes I find in WikiCommons that tagging has gone wild and people have just guessed what things are, and I spend some time cleaning things up. If you have any questions about horse-drawn vehicle taxonomy or classification, feel free to ask. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 00:35, 17 June 2026 (UTC)

@Pelikana: After looking more closely at the Dutch "huifkar" and German "Planwagen" pages, I understand better why some modern tourist wagons were being categorized as "covered wagons". Structurally that makes sense in Dutch and German, even if the English term is usually used for historical migratory wagon types.

What I think we are really running into is a Commons category-structure issue. Some images need a vehicle-type category, and some need a function category, and right now those get mixed together. For example, modern tourist wagons and historical charabancs share similar functions (going on outings), but they are not the same vehicle type, and mixing them makes it hard to find images. Note: A charabanc is open with crosswise seats (passengers face forward); a modern huifkar or Planwagen is covered and more usually has longitudinal seats (passengers face sideways).

I would like to work with you on a clearer structure so that historical covered wagons and modern tourist wagons do not end up mixed in the same place. You have more experience with Dutch and German wagon terminology, so I would prefer to discuss this with you rather than impose some structure I thought up.

Would you be open to talking about how we can organize the covered-wagon categories so both historical and modern images can be found more easily? ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 09:38, 17 June 2026 (UTC)

Cart or wagon

Hey if we cant agree that in this topic anything with two wheels is vehicle type cart and anything with 4 wheels should be under wagons, we have no commmon ground and i will have to ask you to keep your hands off stuff in other countries that is none of your business since uk+cart has plenty off stuff to add categories to. Just removing the notion wagon without replacing it proberly is vandaölsim, stop that please or I will repoert it. If you do a proper search for UK+cart or UK+wagon you will find plenty of poorly categoriezed carts and wagons in the UK. Nobody in the UK seems to care about sorting these properly. So why are you reploughing the fields that are already in prebloom? If you doubt that that wagon is a wagon , tell me what ilse would it be? In Holland it is important to make this separation because laymen often even confuse cart and wagon. This is a primary goal to have this clear in the fist place. Your removing of 'wagon' is destructive editing. If you just delete categories you are not helping to categorize, you are decategorizing which is the opposite of it.

Your definition of a taxi (without horse-drawn) coversthe the sprectrum from rickshaws and sedan chairs to spaceshuttles. The function is not helpfull at all to come closer to a carriage typology by shape AND function. Stop being strict about this stuff that is obviously in a body of work by others. These categories are not just 'labels' o files, we are creating groups of related items by categorizing, and this can be done in steps, from vehicles to road vehicles to horse drawn vehicles to horse drawn wagon either or horse drawn cart by city, country and centurry. And than for the specialist we can still say this is a wagon of the building type: stanhope pheaton.

unsorterd horse-drawn taxis in Malta, carriages with 4 wheels: wagontype vehicles
plenty of UK stuff to take care off: horse drawn wagon, (even if no horse in sight)
plenty of constuctive categorizing to do for carriages wagons and carts in the UK

I'm doing the same trying to find the right images, bring them together and describing them properl, since 20 years, right. And you just used a Dutch text was edited by me about Janplezier as if you had written it yourself. In holland this is easily called a huifkar which is a grand source of misunderstanding the difference between a cart and a wagon. This whole notion is lacking in your approach. From vehicles well sorted as wagons you remove the building typu to replace it by function type, abandoning basic notion of either cart or wagon. I am asking you to stop that. As you say horse drawn taxis have become rare. So why use a 19th century common name for city cabs now for rolling discos. ?? Peli (talk) 10:04, 17 June 2026 (UTC) 09:51, 17 June 2026 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the offer to work together on this subject matter. Ik have a quastion on how to call Hand carts in Slovenia set of basket carts in English acknowledging that is is a regional type using wickerwork, from Slovania. Fpr the wagons of this type I had chosen Wickerwork wagons and also Basketwagens. This was just the improvised name for the 'boxes', the categories, to bring these files one one page together, it sounded logical and usable to me. But maybe there is a proper name type for this in english like 'coracle' for basketboats? Thanks, Best regards. Peli (talk) 20:19, 17 June 2026 (UTC)

In English, the term is "wicker" for the category of basketry, basket-making materials, and things made with those materials, including furniture. The word "wickerwork" is also used, but less often, because it leans more toward the type of workmanship, rather than naming objects using an adjective for their material. See also Category:Wicker and Category:Wicker objects for other subcategories named using "wicker".

For the Slovenia hand carts, you could make Category:Wicker hand carts in Slovenia as a subcategory of Category:Hand carts in Slovenia. With hand carts, I think it is less important to separate two-wheeled and four-wheeled types; they're always small so they can be pulled by a human.

On the other hand, I agree that with horse-drawn vehicle categorizing, two-wheeled and four-wheeled need to be differentiated (two=cart, four=carriage, coach, and wagon) because so many things are different including harness, connections, axles, suspension, balance, and driving skill.

Examples of wicker horse-drawn vehicles (only for illustration): (1) a wicker governess cart, (2) a wicker carriage like a governess cart, but four-wheels, (3) a wicker carriage of Park Phaeton type, (4) a wicker carriage of vis-a-vis type, (5) a wicker carriage in France. Occasionally you'll see other terms like "basket" instead of "wicker", like this carriage named a Pony Basket Phaeton, which would also be correctly called a "wicker pony phaeton" (wicker=material, pony=size, phaeton=type). "Basket" suggests a shape, not a material. Not all wicker should be called basket, but all baskets can correctly be called wicker. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 22:51, 17 June 2026 (UTC)

Peli, I added a new section in w:Covered wagon for "Modern excursion wagons" (taking some ideas from https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huifkar and https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planwagen). Please check that I have correctly used the nl and de words, and have selected appropriate photos. Feel free to edit the section to correct any mistakes I've made. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 09:03, 18 June 2026 (UTC)

Cinderella carriages

Hi Grorp - we have a collection of more than one 'Cinderella wedding carriages' - some currently under Barouches. Is this the correct a correct category name for that? I mean the open traransparent egg shape or glasscovered egg cabins white carriages. new cat Pumpkin coaches ? Meanwhile I made this as Cinderella carriages, it can always be renamed keeping it as a redirect. Peli (talk) 12:10, 21 June 2026 (UTC)

@Pelikana: I don't see any pumpkin carriages under Category:Wedding barouches, unless you mean the 3 white pumpkins now under Category:Cinderella carriages. It looks reasonable to separate these from other carriages. However, I see that 3 images are horse-drawn and 1 is not (it is probably a photograph prop or a parade float). Maybe have a second category Category:Horse-drawn cinderella carriages. Another option is assume 'horse-drawn' for this new category and move out the non-horsedrawn one. I don't really want to add "horse-drawn" in front of every carriage type; only if there is a horse and not-horse variety.

One of the reasons I got involved in checking the hierarchy of the horse-drawn articles is because of the ambiguity and miscategorizing. I don't know all the perfect solutions, but I'm working towards a better categorizing and organization. I am glad you are also working on that.

By the way, most of the images under Category:Barouches are actually modern vis-a-vis carriages, not barouches. Of Category:Wedding barouches, only 1 of those 4 are actually a barouche. I don't know why all the white-colored carriages are being called "barouche". ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 16:26, 21 June 2026 (UTC)

Coaches

I had some more questions about coach if not a real stage coach is it, Private Coach or Park Drag? Peli (talk) 12:54, 21 June 2026 (UTC)

@Pelikana: I will probably give you more information than you asked for, but here goes.

"Coach" is the general term for a large four-wheeled vehicle with corner pillars, walls, doors, and a solid roof. "Stagecoach" is a public transport vehicle; drags were always private. Some coaches that were used as stagecoaches were later acquired and used as private vehicles. "Drag" is short for "park drag"; a smaller "sporting" coach.

The use of the word "stagecoach" in the USA evokes the image of a red-and-yellow Wells Fargo Concord coach suspended by leather thoroughbraces, pulled by six horses, and racing across the dry and dusty landscape of dirt roads. In England, "stagecoach" brings images of a large black-and-red or black-and-yellow mail coach or road coach with four horses on actual roads. In both cases, these are vehicles used for public transport where the horses were changed out at intervals (stages) while the coaches traveled on to the end of their route.

Here is a short story to put "drag" in perspective. In England, there was the mail coach (carried mail and passengers on routes) and the road coaches (carried passengers, but not mail). As the railroads became more prominent, coaches were still used for routes not covered by rail, but many of the coaches were 'retired' (sold). They were acquired by aristocratic gentlemen, who used these coaches for sport, and to show off their skills of driving a four-in-hand and to show off their (expensive) matched set of fancy horses. They formed "driving clubs", and they drove their friends on outings to "show off" and to use the coaches as moving grandstands (like going to horse races and polo matches). They then started to commission the construction of smaller and lighter coaches, called "park drags", which were usually painted plain black or other dark colors — in contrast to the earlier commercial coaches which were often black-and-yellow or black-and-red with lettering on the sides. The drags were outfitted with picnic equipment and were not primarily intended for people travelling inside. Over time the roof seats were made even wider to accommodate more people.

This "gentleman's sport" was imported to the USA during the en:Gilded Age/nl:Gilded Age. These newer drags (and older acquired English coaches) were used to display wealth and social status. Women would dress in the latest fashions and sit on top of the coaches. The newspapers would cover who wore what. Drag and park drag are the same thing.

"Stagecoach" is a function. "Coach" is a type. "Road coach", "mail coach", and "drag" (or "park drag") are specific types of coach. Coaches are an entire class of horse-drawn vehicle, a large subset of the "carriage" class — however, on WikiCommons it seem to be called "close carriage" (correct English usage would be "closed carriage", but "closed carriage" and "open carriage" are not wording used by carriage historians, authors, or museums; they would use "carriage" or "coach" depending on construction details).

In photographs, you can distinguish a drag by its dark somber coloring and lack of lettering or other adornment; also they are slightly shorter in height than the other coaches. Drags often have roof seats wider than the roof (holding more people across), compared to the road coach roof seats which end at the edge of the roof. Drags also have a lighter rear seat support for grooms/attendants and a less bulky box/boot in the rear. Mail coaches and road coaches are constructed almost identically to each other, with some differences like lockable compartments for mail which you won't see in photographs or paintings. A "mail coach" has lettering or symbols on it indicating "post" or "mail" or other countries' similar wording or emblems (carrying the mail was always a special license). A "road coach" will also have lettering. Both road coaches and mail coaches often have two city names indicating the two ends of their scheduled routes. A retired mail coach or road coach later purchased to use privately may retain its original route lettering and symbols. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 17:30, 21 June 2026 (UTC)